KVC meeting with Hereditary Chiefs

KVC meeting with Hereditary Chiefs

April 22, 2009 - 4:47pm

To Membership:

Re:    September 27, 2007 Minutes of Meeting between Hereditary Leaders and Kitamaat Village Council

Now that the Kitamaat Village Council has a judgment against former lawyer, Janice Switlo, we can tell our side of the story to set the record straight.  Before the question of Switlo's legal liability to us was decided by the court judgment, we were not free to release important information to combat the outright lies that have been spread by the defendants in the libel suit.

The information that you will be receiving is only a portion of the extent to which Switlo has worked to discredit the elected Chief and Council and to interfere with the Haisla people’s right to elect a band council.  When much of the lies were spread we did not have the choice or opportunity to tell our side of the story and there are some, especially the defendants, who thought that our silence was the same as them being right and the Council being wrong. They forgot the golden rule that sometimes silence is golden.

Various legal restrictions, which no longer apply, prevented us from telling what happened, what was said, by whom.

Now that the judgment against Switlo is a matter of public record we can begin to live up to our promise to share what we know.

Good reading.

Kitamaat Village Chief and Council

 

Present:
Steve Wilson        Chief Councillor / Chair
Margaret Grant    Deputy Chief Councillor
Ellis Ross        Councillor
Kevin Stewart    Councillor
Keith Nyce        Councillor
Godfrey Grant    Councillor
Henry Amos        Councillor
Alex Grant, Sr    Councillor
Sylvia Woods    Councillor

Absent:
Ken Hall        Councillor
Rod Bolton        Councillor

Administration:
Sue Christiansen    Council Secretary

Guests:
Crosby Smith
Russell Ross Sr
John Wilson Sr.
Harvey Grant Sr.
Sammy Robinson
Harvey Grant Jr.
Verlie Nelson
Annie Woods
Lorna Bolton
Marilyn Furlan
Cyril Grant Jr.
***
STEVE WILSON:    
Can I first ask Sammy to open with a prayer?

SAMMY ROBINSON:    
Sammy says prayer in Haisla

STEVE WILSON:    
For the record it is September 27, 2007 at the Haisla Support and Recovery
Centre and we have a Kitamaat Village Council meeting, Steve Wilson, Chief
Councillor

ELLIS ROSS:
Ellis Ross, Councillor

KEITH NYCE:
Keith Nyce, Councillor

KEVIN STEWART:
Kevin Stewart, Councillor

GODFREY GRANT:
Godfrey Grant, Jr., Councillor

SUE CHRISTIANSEN:
Sue Christiansen, Council Secretary

CROSBY SMITH:
Crosby Smith

RUSSELL ROSS:
Russell Ross

JOHN WILSON:
John Wilson

HARVEY GRANT:
Harvey Grant Sr

HENRY AMOS Sr:
Henry Amos Sr., Councillor

ALEX GRANT SR:
Alex Grant, Sr, Councillor

MARGARET GRANT:
Margaret Grant, Deputy Chief Councillor

HARVEY GRANT Jr:
Harvey Grant Jr.

SYLVIA WOODS:    
Sylvia Woods, Councillor

VERLIE NELSON:
Verlie Nelson

ANNIE WOODS:
Annie Woods

LORNA BOLTON:
Lorna Bolton

MARILYN FURLAN:
Marilyn Furlan

CYRIL GRANT JR:
Cyril Grant Jr.

STEVE WILSON:
We have a quorum, there are more than five council members present, so with that the council meeting is called to order.  And we have asked our Hemaas and Mus magithl to meet with us today out of a request from the hereditary chiefs for this meeting to discuss the request for money, so that the Hemaas can represent their clans better in regard to the land claims and the cemetery.  There was a letter that was given to council in August requesting the meeting.  I’ve asked our staff to bring copies down so you will each have a copy of that for your records.  And we wanted to meet with you to discuss that request, as well as talk about the Alcan Modernization where we are with that and to bring you up to date with our economic development.  I’ve spoken with Jassee yesterday and one of the things that he said was that whenever we have meetings with you we never paid you, and I need to know how many haven’t been paid, because the agreement that we had when I first got elected was when you meet with us – we will give you an honorarium like we would any other council member.  That’s the first time I’ve heard you’ve never been paid.  Now when Crosby has phoned me and said I never got my cheque yet, I’ve phoned and said get that cheque done.  So we need to discuss that and the role of the Hemaas and Mus magithl and Kitamaat Village Council.  So that’s basically what we’re here to discuss today.  Are there any questions or concerns in regard to what we are here today for?  Keith?

KEITH NYCE:
Are we going to formalize our agenda before we move into this?

STEVE WILSON:
No, I want to have a very open and frank discussion on this before we get to our agenda.

KEITH NYCE:
So normal KVC business. We’ll formalize that once we get through this?

STEVE WILSON:
Yes…Crosby

CROSBY SMITH:
I guess Steve that one of the things that you… the question toward the people that signed this paper, Tommy, Johnny, Harvey, Stewart, Sammy Shaw, and David, I guess the question will be toward them, because I do not know nothing about this.  Thank you

STEVE WILSON:
Thank you Crosby

SAMMY ROBINSON:
I too know nothing about it, I was never invited to discuss this so I’m clueless of what’s going on.

STEVE WILSON:    
Thank you Sam, Lorna.

LORNA BOLTON:
This is the first time I’m hearing of this.

STEVE WILSON:    
Harvey

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Thanks…the reason why…we’ve been having meetings, Tommy has told us to continue organizing the chiefs and trying to get an office of our own.  We have been calling guys, like Crosby and guys that say they’re clueless of what is going on.  They haven’t come….they’re busy or sick or whatever, these are the leftovers.  Tommy told us to carry on, we want to find out are we going to build a cemetery, are we going to get this are we going to get that?  So these are the guys that have kept on going with us til the end….and I want to thank you guys for that.  I think what we need to do here is communicate a little bit more, not only with the chiefs but all Haisla people, so we could move ahead as one big nation, not a divided nation.  I think this is what Tommy is looking at, he doesn’t want anything to trickle down to our grandchildren, let’s get everything in the smooth riding, now.  That’s why there’s just a few of us left here that’s willing to carry the torch, what Jassee started in that public meeting.  That’s the only way I could tell you how we .. there’s so few that’s left here.  There was more than that in the meeting, but when it was time to sign, they weren’t there.

STEVE WILSON:
Verlie

VERLIE NELSON:
Thank you Mr. Chairman, I’m looking at the list and I’m following up on what Crosby Smith said, I know he is one of the hereditary chiefs, I know that the hereditary chiefs and chieftainship comes down to your matrilineal lines, and I know for a fact that he’s had a feast, that’s how he gave his status as one of the hereditary chiefs and his name is omitted here.  Some of those that have chosen to consider themselves or make themselves as chiefs, I leave a question mark beside that, thank you.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
I also want to mention that.. my name… I stepped aside as chief … that’s what some of these guys want to know…I didn’t step onto the picture as a chief I slid over as  <says Haisla name> as Wisex right hand man, that’s how the Nuyuum goes.  <says Haisla name> means two things either the making of a chief or the chiefs right hand man.  I have my own table in the feast hall with a different name <says Haisla name> But I still sit with Sunahead, across from Sunahead, not across from him anymore, but I still will be with my son until I’m called away from this earth, mother earth, but I’ll be with my son until then, as his right hand man, with my own table in the feast hall, thank you

JOHN WILSON:
What you seem to be getting at is talking about big chief, little chief.. there’s only one word and that’s Hemaas.  You listen carefully in the feast …<inaudible> …he sits at the head of his own table, that’s what you hear at the feast, when we were growing up.  That’s all Hemaas, that’s what it is.  Haisla Goh, a chief is concerned, you call it Haisla Goh, when you go anybody can ask a question to anybody, but that’s what it is all about, the Haisla Goh, remember that.  It’s the people that’s elected all of you, we’ve asked for meeting about the left over money, you say you represent the Haisla people, we want the financial statement, from the council’ first term up to date.  A voice in the land claims, which we have a right to know, then we go to a Haisla Goh, it’s time you talked the down side of land claims.  You hear of people losing their homes up the Nass, moving to Rupert and Terrace, that’s what I was going to talk about when you rang the bell on that meeting..public meeting.  There’s an awful lot of questions, it’s lack of communication from you people, but remember it’s the Haisla people you are working for.  You represent it, so prove it by letting us know what is going on.

STEVE WILSON:
Let me answer this….

JOHN WILSON:
Tommy don’t give up…was his last instructions to us, that left over money belongs to the Haisla people, it doesn’t belong to the Council, put it to good use.  Three of us have signed, authorizing Morris to represent us..you can ask him, three of us…he has kept in touch with Tommy all this time and I couldn’t see.  I went to that meeting cause Tommy couldn’t go.  If anybody has anymore I’d like to hear from you.

STEVE WILSON:
I’d like to respond….

JOHN WILSON:    
….and you work together with us.

STEVE WILSON:
I would like to respond to what you said first… I think we as a Council deserve to be heard in respect to what you are saying.  This is not just going to be just a one way dialogue and when I listen to what you are saying about communicating and the lack of getting an audit.  We give an audit out every year and every month we publish a Dootilth and we say this is what is going on.  Now I think my mistake has been I haven’t sat down and written what I’m doing, but I provide direction to council and the administration on what needs to be done.  And every month you get the Dootilth and you get our financials and I don’t know what else to do but sit there and say we’ve given you the information we’ve got an open policy on that.  We share that all the time, and when we ask our Hemaas to come and meet with us, I have very rarely seen you there.  And to hear your criticisms, I’ve taken it personally because I think we’ve bent over backwards to try and get the information out.  And the concern I have with your approach is that you have three people that aren’t telling the rest of the Hemaas that you guys have sent Morris as representing us.  And I’d like to hear the other Hemaas and Mus Magithl to see if they agree with that.

JOHN WILSON:
As Harvey said we tried to call a meeting <inaudible>

STEVE WILSON:
The other concern that I have is the message getting between you guys and Jassee and the rest of them, isn’t always the same one…

JOHN WILSON:
<inaudible> you gave us what you offer, and if we have to we’ll go house to house to the other chiefs…what are you offering?  We still want to know where that money went.

STEVE WILSON:
What money?

JOHN WILSON:
The left over Eurocan money that Tommy has been requesting ever since your first or second term.

STEVE WILSON:
It has shown up in our audit every year….when I first got elected that money was down to 1.1 million dollars, it is now up to 2.9 million.  Unlike the other council or administration who took money out of there all the time, without coming to the public we have put 1.7 million into it…it’s there in our audit every year.  There’s not a penny missing, we actually put more money into the Haisla Investment than any previous Chief and Council before us.

KEITH NYCE:
Since June 2005 that investment fund has raised ½ million dollars in interest.

JOHN WILSON:
Well he wants to put it into good use, is what his instructions were to us, put it where it’s supposed to have been.

ELLIS ROSS:
Can I speak?

STEVE WILSON:
Yes

ELLIS ROSS:
I’m next on the speakers list, I’m Ellis Ross, Councillor, you say you’ll go door to door with what happens here on the offer.  Why didn’t you go door to door of the Chiefs and Mus magilth with this?  How come the rest of them are just learning right now what is happening and you’re talking about the accountability of council, where is the accountability of the chiefs?  When we have concerns about how you guys are acting what do we do, when you undermine the leadership of this community what do we do about the chiefs, it’s gotta go both ways.  I totally agree I’m here for the Haisla people, but the chiefs have got to be here for the Haisla people as well.  Why did you not go door to door to my dad with this document?  With this other document that you guys have filed with the BCUC hearing, why doesn’t my dad know about that?

JOHN WILSON:
We tried to…Harvey tried to go to see all the chiefs for that meeting….

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
This…Sunahead and Jasee speak for themselves, you don’t speak for me, I got my own ideas on this, this is how I feel, they speak for themselves….Harvey does too, and Tom does…I got my own ideas, I don’t go along with what they’re saying.  Besides that Council has done a damn good job.

HARVEY GRANT sr:
Well like I said ..in the start we tried to call you Russell …we tried to call you Crosby, we tried to call the rest, we have a whole list..you guys wouldn’t come.

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
In what capacity are you sitting in, in this meeting?  Are you a chief?

HARVEY GRANT Sr.
I am a chief

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
I thought you gave up that chieftainship

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
I said I slid over for my boy <says Haisla name> is Wisek’s right hand man and I have my own chair just like you have.  I don’t sit at the head table anymore, but I do have my own chair as Wisek’s right hand man.

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
You want to be on both sides

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Well, I’m on one side, I’m on the Chief’s side, but why there are so few left there, we have a lady that volunteered…two ladies volunteered to try and phone you guys for these meetings that Jassee wants us to have, and none of you come up, you guys came for awhile but you gave up.

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
But you go ahead and sign these documents.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
We have to because you guys weren’t there; we tried to call you guys.

STEVE WILSON:
Ok I have Keith and then Hank

SAMMY ROBINSON:
I think when Harvey gave up his chieftain to his son; that was a very very bad mistake.  It has never been done, and you will never see it done again.  He should have included all the chiefs and tell them what you’re going to do.  It’s not right what he’s doing that he’s holding onto his chieftainship, where he has publicly given it up.  So Harvey you have to straighten yourself up with the Kitamaat people.  To my eyes you are not a chief anymore, you have given it up.  So it is your son that is going to speak and do all these things that you are doing.  Thank you

STEVE WILSON:
Before I get to the speakers list, I would like to ask that Wisek’s speak, and I would defer to him

HARVEY GRANT Jr:
Thank you.  The question that my dad being on the list, for those of you who attended the feast I put up, the name…the chief’s name…I believe my words were …that I am still going to hang onto my dad to be a consultant, it was me that phoned him last night and asked him to attend to this.  Thank you

KEITH NYCE:
Well I think a consultant is one thing, Council hires consultants too, but they don’t speak and represent themselves as representatives of the Haisla.  That letter to BCUC on the Alcan Modernization could potentially cause a lot of damage, because you have two people;  John Wilson and Harvey Grant Sr. representing themselves as being representatives of the Haisla Nation.  I don’t know if you guys know that if you’ve seen that letter and they say they have to be consulted to have their interests addressed.  What are their interests?  The Haisla Nation is represented by Kitamaat Village Council as the elected body.  BCUC understands that, they know the elected body are representatives of the Haisla Nation, and I think what we have to get straight here is what capacity are the hereditary chiefs acting in.  To me they’re looking for political standing, you have a political body already.  The Hereditary Chiefs were first engaged with Steve in 2001 to serve in an advisory capacity.  Now you’re going beyond that, now you want your own political standing.  Now you’re saying you’re representatives of the Haisla Nation to third parties and to government agencies.  And that’s wrong.  The people have spoken, they voted this body in, and we’re representing the Haisla people.

STEVE WILSON:
Henry

HENRY AMOS:
Thank you Steve, We can sit here and argue and talk all morning.  It’s time we sat down as Chief and Council and Hemaas and Mus magilth.  Too far, too many times, we’re butting heads as spokesmen for whoever you want to be in.  We have to address the problem.  From time nobody knew who hereditary chiefs were, nobody, until the past week when we were asked to invite the hereditary chiefs and Mus magilth, who do we go to? Who are the hereditary chiefs?  And we got down to the four and five names; that’s John, Harvey Jr, Tom Robinson, Floyd and Allan Williams.  From what we hear from out there, that’s the true hereditary chiefs, whether that’s true or not, you guys probably know better than I.  But we have to start somewhere to make a plan instead of fighting amongst one another.  We have to draw out a plan where we can go to…to define who the hereditary chiefs are. And from what I hear those five guys are the true hereditary chiefs.  The rest, like me and the smaller chiefs, are more of a worker for the hereditary chiefs.  But in order for things to work with Kitamaat Village Council you have to get together…you have to get together.  I for one …I hear your concerns, and I take it serious, and I’ll do my best…the cemetery one.  If I can go on Steve and address the cemetery a bit….

STEVE WILSON:
No, let’s not get into that right now.

HENRY AMOS:
Ok, but what we have to do as Chief and Council and the Hereditary Chiefs, we have to get together, make a format where we can address these concerns, instead of arguing all the time.  We have to stop that.  Thank you

STEVE WILSON:
Crosby

CROSBY SMITH:
Thank you Steve, I guess one of the things that has to be bought up here.  I was approached by one of our members in the village after the election, Johnny and Harvey, and they told me, that the reason why, I’m going to tell you now, the reason why I didn’t attend one of your meetings because I am for Chief Councillor Steve Wilson and the rest of the councilors.  I voted for them, that is the reason why I didn’t go to your public meeting, whatever it was.  Because I know you are on the other side of the people that voted for these people.  You voted on the wrong party, that’s the reason why I didn’t want to attend, because I did not want to have trouble with the Council, they are doing good, if they’re not doing good, Johnny and Harvey, why are they there for six years?  You answer that.  And I’ll tell you another one what she said about the…, I too myself was concerned about that Eurocan settlement, I don’t know how many times I bought it up in public meetings, I was concerned about it, but due to what this Chief Councillor has just reported to you…it was down when Gerald Amos was a Chief Councillor, down to 1.9 million, now he says to me (Steve Wilson) that it’s up to 2.9 million.  The other report that Morris Amos bought up here was he wanted a report of our financial…what money that we have.  The Chief answered him right now, I don’t know if you two were here, we’re 3.9 million to the good….and that all comes from Gerald and Morris.  After the election, they wanted a recount.  How can you do a recount when you get beaten by 28 votes, you can’t do it, it’s already through the government.  And that’s not what we’re here for to buck against the people we voted for, they’re doing a great job.  We know that and we can’t change that for the next two years.  Hopefully that we do get some of the younger people in there, like Margaret, then mix them up with older people in Council, then we’re going to do great.  What we’re doing right now we’re bucking against them.  That is the reason why I did not attend your meeting, because I’m for this group here.  And you’re doing a great job, thank you.

STEVE WILSON:
Thank you, I have Margaret, Keith and then Kevin

MARGARET GRANT:
Thanks to everyone for attending, it’s good to see all the faces; I think our main focus here today is to open dialogue and communication.  What we as a council want to know is that in instances when something comes to our attention, who will be the contact people for us.  The Hemaas and the Mus mazilth, who will we go to right away, so that we can remain consistent, transparent, accountable, those are words that are thrown around all the time in the political world.  But those have damn good meanings, and that is what we want to accomplish today.  We want those lines of communication, we want to give you the information you are looking for, we’re more than willing to give you the information you are looking for.  But we need consistent contacts, we need to be given the names of who we can always go to, so that everything down the line, for the next how many years is consistent and no one will be able to say…well how come this, and how come I wasn’t notified…we will have that consistent line and that is why we are here today, that is one of the main reasons we are here today.  And I hope before we leave this room today that that is accomplished.  Thank you

STEVE WILSON:
I have Keith, Kevin, Godfrey and Harvey Grant Sr.

KEITH NYCE:
Just to add to Margaret’s comments there, we need to know that the Hereditary Chiefs and the Mus mugilth are working with council and that they’re serving as an advisory capacity, and that they’re not working behind the scenes to undermine what we’re trying to accomplish.  We’re working for the betterment for the Haisla people, we haven’t forgotten why we are here, we understand why we are here.  And my take on it so far is that we have two or three chiefs that are constantly working at undermining what we’re doing.  And it’s to the detriment of the Haisla people; you’re not helping the Haisla people.  In regards to the Eurocan settlement, I told everybody at that lynch mob last September 7 of 2006, I told you all that the investment account manager can be here on two days notice.  If you want to ask tough questions you can ask her.  She can be here within two days.

STEVE WILSON:
Kevin

KEVIN STEWART:
Thanks Steve, Hemaas, Mus mugilth, I want to thank you for responding to the invitation Sunahead and everyone else.  This is a real important meeting today, a time where we can try to look to work together, all of us.  For our people, our children, our grandchildren.  We have to find a way to work together and communicate better; we’ve always done our best.  Steve and the rest of us that have been here for the last six years, with the radio station, the Haisla Dootilth, we’ve done our best.  I don’t know what more we can do, but we can do better, I know we can do better, but we need to find a way to work together in harmony, not amongst each others.  I was taught by my grandfather that the chief is there for guidance, to be a leader of your clan and your family.  Not to fight with other people.  We’re supposed to be there to calm the people and give guidance to the Council and the community that was what I was told and taught, and I don’t see it happening today.  I see us fighting amongst each other and it’s got to stop.  What I want to see today and hear today from the leaders of the hereditary clans, is who is their hereditary leaders for each clan.  We’re getting letters like this, with a lot of different names, everybody’s a hereditary chief, but we’re going to be continuously getting these letters from anybody that is unhappy.  And we can’t acknowledge letters like this, from people who have things against council; we need to know who the leaders are so we can respond to them if we find that they’re hereditary leaders who we know are or supposed to be the hereditary leaders.  And then we can respond to them if we know that we’re dealing with the right leaders.  Harvey no disrespect to you Harvey, I’ve always been very respectful of you, but it is my understanding that you gave up your chiefs name in that feast, I don’t speak Haisla, so I must have missed some of that communication that Junior was talking about.  But there needs to be clarification on that.  We’re willing to work together with everybody.  This is all important stuff when we do work together, it impacts the Treaty.  Thank you Steve.

STEVE WILSON:
Godfrey and then Harvey Grant Jr.

GODFREY GRANT:
Thank you, my concern to the chiefs is; the names that were signed on that piece of paper for the treaty issue and the grave site, my question was..when we had a Council meeting..I asked the question, “all the names that were signed on that paper, were they in attendance, all of them?” Because the way I see it is, is a lack of communication between the chiefs.  You have a meeting and the names that were signed on there; the head chief goes to the door and makes them sign a piece of paper.  And the chief’s names that are on there don’t even know what’s going on.  Today the names that are on there, they aren’t even here.  But they consider themselves as chiefs, and we’re just going against our Nuyuum.  It’s you chiefs that should be speaking up when there’s wrong doing in your body council there.  Thank you

STEVE WILSON:
Harvey Grant Sr.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Me? Oh ok, Thanks Steve, I think I’ve clarified myself good enough and Sammy says I have no business being here and we seem to be fighting amongst ourselves now as chiefs, but what we really did was follow the instructions from Jassee before he really got sick… now he’s in no…

SAMMY ROBINSON:
Let me stop him there for awhile, he’s putting words in my brothers mouth, and this has to stop.  When I hear things like this I go up to him and ask him “Harvey done this, he’s making a mockery out of your name Tom” I said to my brother.  He is putting words in Jassee’s mouth, he doesn’t talk like this.  And Harvey this has to stop, I don’t like it.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Dora is right there as witness, Dora is right there…

SAMMY ROBINSON:
I go to Tommy when I hear this rumors, and I said, “you say this to Harvey?”  “I never said anything like that”, that’s what my brother said.  He’s never heard of what he’s talking about.  And when he made this here, my brother’s mind is not clear anymore, you can see there he just made an X there, if he was in sound mind, it would have been written Tom Robinson.  He is putting the words in Jassee’s mouth. So…

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Sorry you’re accusing me of that Sam, but I go to Tom just about every day and sit with him and when his mind is clear, he talks to me, I don’t bring nothing up to him.  He’s telling me to carry on with what he started, and he calls it Haisla Goh.  And I want that ended…I want a cemetery built for me.

SAMMY ROBINSON:
That’s been in the plans for a long time.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
He said to me, thirty years since I put that on the table, it’s high time, we have the money, let’s go ahead.  He doesn’t want our people to do what we did last time, where we lost a bunch of people while we were working on the grave site, and he doesn’t want that to happen again.

STEVE WILSON:
Harvey Grant Jr.

HARVEY GRANT Jr:
Thank you Steve.  I hear what Council and Hereditary Chiefs are saying, and I think everybody seems to be after the same thing, working for the betterment of our people.  Since I put up a feast and received a Hereditary Chief’s name, I’m guilty of not participating in the political field.  And now I’d like to say now for the record, I will be involved in the political field speaking on behalf of the clan that I represent.  And perhaps when I talk about my dad being a consultant, maybe consultant was not the proper terminology; it’s more like a mentor.  Thank you

STEVE WILSON:
Thank you, and I’d like to wrap this up, I’d like to take you guys back to 2001.  When I first got elected in 2001, I had some of my family phoning me and saying “you better get up to the Council office, Gerald and them are taking over”  And I said “no, I’m going to see the Hemaas”  So I phoned Tom up and I said I’d like to talk to you, get your chiefs together.  I went up there and said “I need you guys to be involved in what we’re doing” What I heard from you guys was – we don’t have a voice, we’re not involved in the decision making and we want to be heard.  So I said “ok, you come to our table with the decision making, I will pay you the honorarium just like a council member gets.”  I said “I need you to name your successors so that we can start training them on what we’re doing as a council”.  The only one that did, was Harvey Grant Sr., at that time he said “Harvey Grant Jr. is going to take my name” Then we said ok we want to appoint your successors to the Haisla Business Development Corporation.  And you guys said “we want somebody that understands business representing our clan” So we said “ok, if that is your wish we’ll do that” And the next thing that I offered you guys is – I want you the current sitting chiefs to be the Haisla Fisheries Commission, so that you’re providing guidance on our fishing and our other natural resources, and as commissioners, I can very easily justify paying your honorarium on a meeting by meeting basis.  The next offer that I gave you guys is we will use the treaty team cause you have a representative on the treaty team, we will make the treaty work for you guys, we will structure so you will have an office.  So to hear that I have excluded you, and that you don’t have that voice, and you want accountability drawn, is totally untrue.  If you had been at any of those meetings you would have heard from your own ears the offers that were put on that table.  I have my fathers name “says haisla name - duqlaha”   And that someone that has an Eagle name, I have to say that I am very disappointed that you have taken the position that you have when we have gone to great lengths to make sure that every time there is a meeting I make sure you’re called.  Nine times out of ten you have not shown up and you have never responded to them.  So you cannot accuse me or say I have not kept you informed.  I did, I think we are all here for the right reasons.  And I have a lot of great faith that Harvey Grant Jr. is a good chief.  If we’re going to move forward, we’ve got to fix the past.  What happened to us in September, when the concerned citizens were running around telling people that we were broke, that we were bankrupt, that I had three mansions in Vancouver, and a swiss bank account, it did a lot of damage to us.  And no one spoke up until after the public meeting, and these people sitting at this table here were hurt.  During the election the same thing happened and it was the same people that were sitting there doing that and you never stopped them.  That is not leadership that is not what your role as a Hemaas is.  I don’t mind being told that I am wrong, if I’m wrong I expect to be told that I am wrong, I would not have put up the apology feast for Dan, if I did not think that I was wrong.  But I do expect to be treated with more respect than has been shown.  I have put in a lot of hours, and I represent this community to the best of my ability.  You say I have a problem communicating, I say to you I have tried communicating with you, I tried including you, and you never responded.  The onus is on you as a Hemaas to listen and to talk and to let me know what is going on.  Cause if you don’t, I can’t answer, I can’t respond.  I need you to show some leadership the way that a Hemaas is supposed to.  You need to lead for the right reasons.  Twenty years my loyal opposition was in power and control, and twenty years of deficits, they paid themselves very well.  They looked after themselves very well.  They had a chance to fix the Alcan stuff in 1997 when their buddies in the NDP were in power, not one word out of them on that.  We at least have done a lot of things.  And as my father’s son and a person that carries his name, I want you to start talking to me more.  Cause I’ve gone to your house and said “here’s what’s going on”  I don’t mean any disrespect, but what happened in September and what happened in the election that hurt.  You did a lot of damage to me and the people that are sitting at this council.  Because there were lies and there were half truths that were spoken about us, and we’re angry, we shouldn’t be, it’s not right.  I tried to show you the respect that your name deserves, I will continue to do that, but this has to stop, this has to stop, we’re fighting and ripping each other apart.  At three public meetings, I said to Gerald Amos “It’s time to bury the hatchet” and he spit in my face.  I’ve done things as a Chief Councillor that he has never been able to do.  We have twenty-one projects that we’re doing; yes I haven’t been able to deliver all the employment that I promised yet.  But if we don’t negotiate these agreements, someone else is going to take those jobs; someone else is going to take those contracts.  We have no choice we don’t have enough people with the skills, and that’s why I said, “I need your help!”  You need to provide me with advice, I need you there.  And when we call you, you need to come.  I’m sorry for raising my voice, but what happened for the last six years should never have happened to anybody.  There is a very small group of people that are hurting us, saying lies about us, and you guys are not stopping them.  You are empowering them, you are enabling them.  The rest of the membership voted in favor of us because they believe in what we’re doing.  We are open, we are transparent, and we are accountable.  Yes we make mistakes, and when I do I expect you to tell me that, but I also expect you to tell me how to fix it.  There are a lot of people that are very hurt, me too.  I need some leadership out of you John.

JOHN WILSON:
What I say is true about communication, I get the letters you mail alright, but due to my eye sight Bea reads them to me and I put them away, everyone of them, but I never heard about financial statements, No!, that’s why I spoke up.  Even though I couldn’t see at that meeting, I had to go cause Tommy couldn’t go.  When I spoke up about your anger against the very people you are talking about now.  You can’t let go of your anger against us, as I said at that meeting personal feelings should be set aside.  <inaudible> that’s why I tried to say it should have been Haisla who had first choice, on the jobs that you are hiring to outsiders.  <48:41 inaudible>

STEVE WILSON:
Ellis

JOHN WILSON:
I disagreed with that, that you had to put your…you went to that office in Victoria for the trap line.  No trap line should be transferred without your signature.  Jay came up to me and asked me, questioned me and asked is this guy a Haisla?  So I signed it even though I couldn’t see.  You ask Jay, you ask Bea they were there with me.  <inaudible> you were going to pay …I’m going to phone Victoria whenever I get my eyesight back.  I had no problem transferring lines before, and applying for lines.  I only did that to keep the kumswas (white men) out of there.  Rod was supposed to come and see me after, but he never showed up again.  When I voiced my opposition against you signing, but you told that head man in Victoria for the traplines.

STEVE WILSON:
I don’t know what you’re talking about John.

JOHN WILSON:
I raised hell with Jay as he probably told you.

STEVE WILSON:
Ellis

ELLIS ROSS:
Two things;  Tom’s health is a heartbreak, he’s the guy that always had the community interest at heart, and now he’s not healthy enough to look at our issues that are complex issues, that even councilors have a tough time understanding.  It’s just heartbreaking knowing the condition that he is in.  And I don’t take anything to Tom myself, and I would never do that.  I always try and find his spokesman, his next in line.  I just don’t believe in taking something this complex to somebody that is not well.  And as for the anger, I’m really angry, I’m bitter; I want some accountability coming back from somebody, I want my day to defend myself, but I can’t because I don’t know who to direct it to.  I don’t know who the chiefs are.  Last week we had eight different chiefs from the ones that we had last year, two years ago we had four.  I’m trying to find this out for myself who is a chief, who should be at that head table, and who should be at their own tables.  And I’m getting different answers.  At this point; I don’t know what a chief is.  As for my anger, I was not angry until Haisla Goh happened in September.  I was called incompetent at that meeting, to my face.  The guy that was representing the chiefs said to Steve, “So you’re saying your councilors are incompetent?”  and Steve said “no, that’s not what I said.”  Before that there were talks about me that I was embezzling.  I was asked at that meeting whether or not I thought I was worth my wage.  Yes, I’m angry, but it’s not with anything that’s happening with my community, it’s not happening because what I’m doing every day for the community.  It’s because of what happened at Haisla Goh, that’s why I’m angry.  And I don’t understand why the chiefs are attacking us.  And I use the term chiefs generally and loosely, because I don’t know who a chief is and I don’t know what a chief is.  I just know that certain chiefs are out to get us, and I don’t know why.  I totally respect the title that every chief has and if they have a question for me, I’ll answer it.  But at this point I don’t know what a chief is, and from the sounds of it, not many people do.  And even at that, the chiefs that you do have, there doesn’t seem to be a followed process on how you guys handle issues.  It sounds like you guys are split politically too.  Now we may be split politically, but in the end we’re supposed to be all Haisla’s, and we’re supposed to be looking out for the future, not just what we want now.  My grandkids have to live here.  I look fifty years down the line on my decision-making; the people I work with have the same opinion.  If we’re going to go election to election on these issues, we’re not looking out for the future.

STEVE WILSON:
Harvey Grant Sr.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Thanks Steve, you’re always going to have an opposition, no matter what you do or how right you think you are.  I sat on this table for twenty-one years. You can see all the accomplishments I helped put in this community;  The Rec Centre, The School, This Building, The Clinic. We worked hard when I was in office and there were always people that were never satisfied, why did you do it this way, why did you do that it that way.  You’re always going to have that.  But what I want to see coming out of this meeting is, total unity of the Haisla people.  That’s why we are requesting, and we’re going to put it in writing, a request for our own office, not far from you guys, so we could work together.  You could work together with our younger chiefs, we have some good younger chiefs, this is why I slid over.  I don’t speak the English that is required to be used in meetings such as this one.  When I talked to Tom and the other chiefs, I asked if it was a good idea to move aside, but at that time I didn’t know whether I was going to live or not anyway, when I decided it was time to move on.  But this is what I want to see come out of this one, is more communication.  So you know where we’re at and what few of us are left of us that are concerned.  You’re concerned, everybody’s concerned, and this is what I want to see is that we settle this and get along in peace and harmony and move on as Haisla people.  I have been getting phone calls from other Nations, that I’d rather not mention them, I also got these letters, we picked it up from the Nisga, I guess we’ll get to that later.  But this is what I want to see come out of this meeting, a united voice of the Haisla Nation.  Let’s have one voice.  Thank you.

STEVE WILSON:
Verlie

VERLIE NELSON:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I think we have come to a time where we need to clarify how our Hereditary Chiefs came to be, how they came to be.  We just didn’t walk off the street and say “you’re going to be chief, you’re going to be this and that and everything else” A lot of the times when the baby was born, you knew their destiny.  Their mothers knew their responsibility was to groom that child so that when the time came they were going to be ready to be a Hereditary Chief, and it all came down through the mothers’ side.  I have been taught and I know I don’t always abide by it – there is a hierarchy.  Or the way a clan is set up; there is a chief, that he has, what we call a spokesman or (speaks Haisla) somebody correct me if I’m wrong is that what an (speaks Haisla) is?  Is a somebody that is a spokesman.  And then there are Sub-Chiefs, I’m not sure what they were called in the past.  58:20 And I heard Allan Williams, I’ll use him as an example, when Ellen Franz had her settlement feast.  He said, I have my own name, I sit at my table, I sit with those people that are my family.  I thought that was…I still think of that today.  You know we’re too loose, I believe we are too loose with the way we handle our hereditary system now.  Because a long time ago you knew who was going to be chief because there was an order.  There was a definite order in which a chief became a chief, and I’m not sure if I’m making any sense but I think that’s one of the prime reasons why we’re butting heads is because we don’t know, or we don’t practice the way the chief becomes a chief, and what they’re allowed to do and not do.  And who they’re accountable to and who puts them there.  For me I speak for myself and I’m here because my mom can’t be here, because she’s also in poor health.  I’m not sure if she’s going to wring my neck when I get home, but I myself see that as being the root of a lot of things here right now.  That we don’t remember how a chief became a chief, and who is supposed to be a chief.  I do know it comes down on your mother’s side.  Thank you.

STEVE WILSON:
Crosby

CROSBY SMITH:
1:00:12 (speaks Haisla) -1:02:54. My dear friends, I will tell you when I first got approached by my granny, Mookaqdi and Bibi Tom, and babao Johnny Paul.  When they first approached me, I might have been ten or eleven, I was still dumb then, and I’m still dumb today.  And she approached me that I’m going to get (says Haisla name), that’s bibi Tom’s name, that’s Dan and Patty’s dad, Tommy Paul.  And I tried to force granny and grandfather, “Kuu ada, momma-o, (speaks Haisla)  I want my grandfathers name, instead of bibi Tom, kuu you can’t, you are already picked to get that (says Haisla name) by Tommy Paul, that’s why I could not get Humgeed, my baba-o’s name.  And many times that they put up a feast when I got bibi Tom’s name, which is rightfully done by you the elected chief, that’s how it’s supposed to happen.  But one of the things that I’m kind of leery about that we’re not ever…when you get up and make a speech that we’re not mentioned by (speaks Haisla)  that we have never, it’s always Haisla.  We’re all here as one, like what Johnny Wilson said and Harvey. And that’s what the history of the name that I got from my Uncle Tom Paul is from there.  And that is why I’m saying to you younger people, you are doing a good job, you are, you are, let’s not get carried away from the people that’s doing things towards you people.  Don’t let it get into you…don’t, just continue doing it, you’re doing a great job.  Thank you.

STEVE WILSON:
Thank you

SAMMY ROBINSON:
Can I say something?  I said it in a meeting one time…all these things that we’re discussing now, comes out from rumors.  Rumors that are not true.  You have to hear the word from the mouth of the person, and that’s what is happening here.  These guys hear rumors and they don’t go to you.  “Is this true?” that’s what you guys should have done.  “Did you do this?”  You should have asked the councilors, that’s why we elected them, not to go behind them and stab them on their backs, and tell the other Kitamaat people that they’re stealing money, and they’re signing this and they have big houses in Vancouver.  I heard this!  Then I said to this person, “Did you hear it from the Council, did you hear it from Steve?”  I’m really mad about it too.  Because they’re taking all the time to better our village for us, and here you guys go and be-little them.  What gain are you guys going to have?  I’m talking to you Harvey and to you too Johnny?  You don’t hear the truth from your councilors that you elected and you go ahead and stab them on the back.  This has got to stop.  As chiefs of this village you have to know better, you’ve been lectured to go the right track, not go behind the elected leaders.  This has to stop now!  You go work with them.  Thank you.  I don’t like it.

STEVE WILSON:
Harvey

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
The reason why we’re here, in the public meeting, you requested so plainly, it wasn’t stabbing anybody on the back.  It was in a public meeting.  Give us in writing where the money is and where did it go, simple as that.  We never got that.

STEVE WILSON:
That’s not true Harvey, you got it.  We released the audit.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
I never seen it

STEVE WILSON:
We had it delivered to every house in this village.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Well except mine, cause I never got it.

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
I got mine.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Well maybe I’ll try and get a hold of one.

VERLIE NELSON:
It was available at the Band Office too, Mr. Chairman, that’s where I got mine.

SAMMY ROBINSON:
You’ll have to excuse me I have an appointment to go to.

STEVE WILSON:
I’d like to update you guys on what is going on, and how it relates to this letter to the BC Utilities Commission.  Close it off Kevin.

KEVIN STEWART:
Just quickly, thanks Steve.  John, Harvey, Hemaas, Mus mugilth.  We’ve heard everything now.  There are a lot of concerns on the table here, and about ways on trying to communicate better.  I think the problem that we have here is we need to find a way of getting the Hemaas and Mus mugilth to understand financial statements and audits better.  We tried last term to arrange to have a person come and train the people how to read an audit.  The plan was in place but the facilitator got sick.  What I’m recommending Harvey, John and everybody else is that we follow through with bringing that lady up here….would that help?

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
I think it would help.

KEVIN STEWART:
I think we need to find a way to include the successors to John, to be involved and be with you when we do that.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Yeah that would be a good idea.

KEVIN STEWART:
And then that’ll hopefully address a lot of the stuff that you guys aren’t aware of with the Haisla Investments.  We’re getting a lot of good returns on the Haisla investments.  And Steve and some of the other councilors have done a lot of good hard work to get us out of a deficit. It’s taken a lot of hard work along with the rest of the staff.  But I think we need to know who we’re going to be working with, the hereditary chiefs it’s got be you John,  it’s got to be Harvey, Allen, those are the ones that we  need to work with as a council. And then we could find a way to work with the other chiefs in each clan and then the rest of the clan members. We need to find a way to address what we’re doing on the council table down to everybody else.  The treaty team has tried numerous ways of trying to relay the message of the treaty work, but it hasn’t been working and we need more guidance from the elders and the chiefs in our community and the Mus mugilth.  We’re not perfect, we do the best we can, we can improve, I agree, but we have to do it in harmony.  We need to improve on how to make it better for you to understand John, Harvey and everybody else.  That’s our goal, to get you to understand what we’re doing at council meetings. We can work together and it’ll make our whole community better if we all understand together what we’re doing.  But I need to know who we’re going to be working with, we can’t be working with all the chiefs at one time it’s to hard, we want to work with the hereditary chief from each clan, that’s what I want to see done. And then we can work with the rest of the chiefs after we get a better understanding of how we’re going to communicate better. Wuu

JOHN WILSON:
Uncle Rod left me a diagram where the chiefs are seated, with different clans where they’re supposed to sit.  I’ll make it available if I can dig it up. But too many have died I have to update it.

KEVIN STEWART:
I think that’s where we can work together, John, Harvey. Because there are a lot of complaints in the community about how people are sat in the feast hall and who the chiefs are in each clan. I think we need to put it on paper and help each other on understanding the importance of the seating.

STEVE WILSON:
The next piece, we’ll deal with Alcan, this right now what happened is we have a letter from Harvey, John and Morris to the BC Utilities Commission saying that they want intervener status in the Long Term Electrical Purchase Agreement between Alcan, BC, and BC Hydro. The letter was sent to the BC Utilities Commission yesterday at two o’ clock, an hour after the hearing formally closed.  The damage that has been done as a result of that letter is enormous.  Right now we have tabled this offer to Alcan, it includes: setting employment standards, training standards, procurements, a legacy fund, the offer is ten million dollars and setting up our trades training program and a whole range of contracts.  We worked very hard over six years to get this agreement and the people that are criticizing me now that are writing these letters, and I’m talking about Morris, I’m talking about Gerald when they had a chance they did nothing.  They never did anything in 1997 when the 1997 agreement was tabled, they could have done something, but they didn’t.  Now to be sitting here being undermined on this deal, I can’t believe it! I’m sitting here going, we work hard to do this, only to be undermined by these two guys.  It’s not perfect, I know that.  I’d love to have fifty million or a hundred million or a billion dollars; the reality is we’re not going to get that.  The agreement is based on give us some procurements, set standards of employment for the Haisla people, give us some money to settle the path so we can use it for education or economic development for social programming. Invest in our community the way we have everywhere else.  One of the interesting aspects of this is the energy sharing, we are developing five independent power projects totaling a hundred and eighty mega watts.  To give you an idea of the magnitude, a ten mega watt project, if you get seven cents a watt on it, your annual revenue will be fourteen million a year.  So if you’re doing a hundred and eighty mega watts you just times that by eighteen.  We have secured the rights to this agreement in negotiating with Alcan to use their transmission line to get our power from Europa & Crab into the grid.  We’re working on a power shaping agreement, we have used an enormous amount of resources and strategy to push Alcan where we need them to be.  And I have said to them, you have failed to consult on a calming of a past infringement of our rights and title.  I expended two weeks solid writing letters back and forth to Montreal.  Montreal came, they met with Margaret, Keith, and I in Vancouver, and they said, we get it now, you’re going to be part of this.  We are going to authorize Paul to negotiate an agreement with you and we are hoping that it will last a test of time.  We have some fundamental differences of what the values should be, but in 1950 we never had anything in writing.  The power shaping deal, it will give us an excess of four million dollars extra a year.  And I said to Alcan, when you came in 1950 you promised free electricity and never delivered, I need access to your transmission line that will check that off, we’ll say you delivered on that.  The hard part for us, was knowing that we had an agreement that we tabled with Alcan, we agreed on the principle between Montreal and us. The problem is BC and BC Hydro and Canada have not consulted in the accommodating of it.  The difficult thing that we face is how do we protect the agreement with Alcan but still go after the province and BC Hydro.  And to this day BC Hydro has got their head buried in the sand and they said, we don’t need to deal with you guys and they’re waiting for me to go (bangs table) … but we didn’t do that.  We acted, and the instruction that we gave to our legal council is, a writ was filed in 1999 to protect our rights and title.  Take it out of our <inaudible> amend it to reflect that BC and BC Hydro have failed to consult and accommodate the Haisla people.  Let’s put it back into <inaudible>, that way Alcan gets to move forward, we still get to go after BC and BC Hydro.  I then table an offer with the Premier, of which this is the letter and the offer that goes along to them.  We caught them off guard; we have them where we want them. And in fact at that BC Utilities Commission hearing, I chose not to go because I did not want to give away my leverage.  And for the chiefs to send a letter saying, that “we” the hereditary chiefs demand to be consulted, undermines everything that we worked hard for in the last six years.  They did a lot of damage, now Alcan’s saying, we can’t trust the Haisla.  So this agreement and the power shaping agreement that we have, is now in jeopardy.  Verlie

VERLIE NELSON:
Mr. Chairman, I think to help the process along, it might be an idea to consider a letter from the Hereditary Chiefs explaining to whoever the powers may be that the Council has been elected and that the hereditary chiefs acted in capacity as an advisory board to the chief and council, it might help to rescue this, whatever it is that needs to, or that’s in jeopardy. I think that would be one of the easier solutions, I think, that’s my own opinion.

STEVE WILSON:
Ellis

ELLIS ROSS:
The strategy that’s being employed here, especially in regards with BC Hydro we’ve gone to turning points to try get support from the other nations to go after BC Hydro.  We have presented this idea to summit to go after BC Hydro.  Now these are, all the Nations are in treaty, everyone knows about consultation, accommodation, aboriginal rights and title.  All the other villages in turning points that was created before I came along knows about aboriginal rights and title, consultation, accommodation.  Nobody backed us up on it, we are the only First Nation that is going after BC Hydro directly, that is huge.  I’ve heard the talks about how other First Nations that are laughing at us about our education, we’re leading education.  Other First Nations are asking us about how we did KVI. And now everyone’s curious about what’s going to happen with us and BC Hydro, everyone’s scared to take on BC Hydro, but not us.  We’re actually using Alcan, the agreements and the talks that we have with Alcan to go after BC Hydro because what we did in the beginning didn’t quite work.  It’s all about strategies and it’s all about using our rights and title and using the representation of the Haisla people.  All our culture is our evidence when it comes to rights and title, it’s our evidence when it comes to treaty, and that’s what we’re using.

STEVE WILSON:
Verlie, I need…first there are two things with that letter that came from John, Harvey and Morris Amos.  It was unsigned, so legally it has no standing.  But the damage has been done. My position at the BC Utilities Commission hearing is going to be that the, <here’s a copy of the letter that went to the BC Utilities Commission,> that letter is not valid because it is not signed and it does not have the support of the hereditary chiefs of Kitamaat Village.  My advice to our Hemaas, is to meet and to fix this, because you have a few people that are undermining everything that we worked hard to achieve.  My question to you is, when Gerald and Morris had the chance to do this, why didn’t they do it? They had the same people advising them that I have, they had the same opportunity that I have.  The difference is, this council and myself look to our people and say we want to create a better future for them.  Verlie

VERLIE NELSON:
I’m sorry to be so hoggy with the time here but I think, again I speak for myself, we know that there has been things that weren’t to our liking, we know that things weren’t done properly, we know that all of these chances were slipped back to when Alcan first came, when they were building the tower line here, a man fell off a tower around the school way.  We know all of those things didn’t come to pass, but I think we could say to ourselves, today we start and we work together as a team because there’s too many things at stake, our future is at stake, our grandchildren, we don’t want our grandchildren to say to us, say when they read about us in history, my god what were those people thinking? So I think now is a good time for us to work together as a team and support each other because we are all working for the betterment of our people because we want someday to be able to say, thank you to the government of Canada we don’t need your money anymore because we are producing and building our own money and we’re taking care of our own people from the babies right up to the old people. And we’re looking after their health, their education, whatever else is important to us at that time.  I think now is a good time for us to set aside everything that has been, that leaves a bad taste in our mouth and say today is a new day we’re going to start and we’re going to work together as a team.  Thank You.

STEVE WILSON:
Thank You, Harvey

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Thanks Steve.  We have to organize and we want to work with you guys.  The reason why we intervened is because we weren’t consulted, it’s a big issue.  We had calls, or I had calls from friends from other nations and they’re saying what are you guys doing?  I said, what do you mean what are we doing? You’re on Alcan’s side all of a sudden, you guys have been fighting Alcan all these years, we’ve been fighting them for the simple reason that they’ve been making all kinds of verbal promises to us.  We were in negotiations with them for compensation for destroying our IR1.  Our people spend a lot of hard time building those houses, and were totally destroyed by Alcan moving in here and they were in agreement at that time to some compensation for each family that had a house in <inaudible>. But now that’s faltered to the wayside, I’m glad that you guys are negotiating with Alcan, you can put that in there too, what we started to do, that we wanted to have compensation for people that did have houses up in <inaudible>.  But I say again we have to unite as one voice I don’t want this to be trickled down to my grandchildren.  I’ve been concerned about the Haisla Nation since I was twenty years old, when I first got elected to Kitamaat, once a mighty Kitamaat Athletic Club, as one of the committee members up until four years ago, I finally had to retire from there due to ill health.  And that was a united Haisla Nation, Haisla Nation worked as one.  That’s why we were up there with the rest of them in the Pacific Northwest.  So I think, what Verlie says, let bygones be bygones and let’s start a new leaf, in working together, communicating more.  If you can get us an office, maybe not far from your office, we’ll have somebody part time or whatever we have three young women that is willing to work for us, keep minutes for us, but we don’t have the money to pay them.  They want to volunteer like the rest of us.  We still want the betterment of the Haisla people, for the future, my grandchildren, something for them to remember.  Things like this happen, when we have to listen to each other, maybe bad mouthing each other, but by the end of the day I want to walk out of here arm in arm united and then we’ll face the future together, for the betterment of the Haisla people.  Thank You.

STEVE WILSON:
Keith

KEITH NYCE:
I’m a little bit confused now because Harvey is saying they need money for an office, and he has three women that are willing to work and volunteer, that’s a little different than salary. I think the danger is that you have an elected political body with a huge staff already.  And I think from what we’ve seen here today, the hereditary chiefs house is not in order.  Just like any other proposal KVC considers there has to be a comprehensive proposal put on the table, outlining how things are going to be structured, who the hereditary chiefs are, who is going to be in there, and what your mandate is.  Like I said before prior to 2001, hereditary chiefs never had a role or voice.  After 2001 Steve attempted to give the hereditary chiefs a voice through an advisory committee.  Advisory committee is a heck of a lot different than the political office because we have to understand this, what are you asking for? Are you asking for political standing? Are we going to see future letters like this? Where you purport to represent the Haisla Nation, working to undermine what the Haisla government is doing, we need assurances that kind of thing is not going to happen.  We talked about negotiations with Alcan, I think I only have to look to pre-2001, pounding the table and demanding things doesn’t work, we know that all we have to do is go and look at the financials.  Pounding the table and saying you owe us, doesn’t work.  The   negotiation style we have adopted is that we address all the interests of all the parties at the table and we look to reach an agreement that works for everybody and that’s what we’re attempting to do with Alcan.  There are some things that aren’t on the table and can’t be, we can’t address every single wrong for the past fifty-four years.  I went to a conference in Osooyos in July and one of the most renowned First Nations leaders in the country was there his name is Bert Grismas.  And one of the things he talked about was the perception of a better deal and I’ve told Steve and I’ve told Ellis this, it doesn’t matter what we come back with, with Alcan. There are going to be the nay-sayers saying there’s a better deal out there, if we come back with a billion dollars they’re going to say why didn’t you come back with ten billion, well the reality is there’s only so much in the pot, it has to be a good business case for Alcan as well, it has to work for all parties at the table.

STEVE WILSON:
Ellis

ELLIS ROSS:
I hear the talk about the negotiations and the promises made from Alcan and you hit the nail right in the head with what was wrong with it.  The agreements that were made were verbal, that’s no fault of council back then. I know there were societal issues; there were legal issues on why it had to be verbal.  We’ve taken those mistakes and we’ve corrected them, that is why you see a legal draft document in front of you, every one of our agreements so far we have made sure that they are legal.  We got their promises in writing and that’s why this takes so long for us because it’s a long drawn out process.  As for the consultation, I’m not sure what you guys mean by consultation.  When you talk about it in this kind of a letter, do you mean aboriginal rights and title consultation? Or do you mean community consultation?, because those are two different things.  Over the last four years all I’ve done is research consultation as it relates to aboriginal rights and title, as it relates to aboriginal rights and title consultation and accommodation.  Case law; I’ve gotten legal opinions; I’ve gotten the council’s opinion. We’ve developed a process, our own process, not the white man’s process, not Alcan’s process, our own process on how consultation is going to happen.  So I don’t understand what the chief’s mean by consultation, when they use it in the context of this document because I hold everybody to our definition of consultation when I’m sitting at the table.  Now if we have three different definitions of consultation at our community we have to fix that because now we’re just looking like an organization that’s not organized.  As for what we’re looking for in agreements we’ve taken the lessons from other communities on what we’re looking for.  The outright monetary compensation, ten million, twenty million, thirty million, fifty million, whatever it is doesn’t work for other First Nations it just adds to their misery, it makes for corruption, it adds to their drug use, it adds to their alcoholic consumption.  Getting money for nothing at the community level is not the answer.  There should be compensation coming to us I agree, in terms of money, but we’ve go to think about the other issues as well.  We’ve got to think about education, we’ve got to think about the environment, we’ve go to think about other thing’s other than just money.  And I know we’ve got to think about the past, but we’ve got think about what’s happening today, and we’ve got to think about what’s going to happen fifty years into the future.  And that’s why our process takes so long; it’s not cut and dry.  Like this, this was not well thought out and this Janice Switlow, if she’s a lawyer, she didn’t think this out very well.  

STEVE WILSON:
She is a lawyer.

ELLIS ROSS:
That was not thought out very well.  The consequences of this letter can do damage to the Haisla people…

STEVE WILSON:
Oh it has done damage…

ELLIS ROSS:
Or it has done damage, it’s going to be hard to correct, not just on the Alcan table, this goes to the BC table, this will go to the Canada table on treaty negotiations.  We’ve told them that, our hereditary leadership and the way we do business is part of our evidence, it’s part of the way names get passed down.  But now we’re starting to confuse this with our political leadership.  Now we have two groups claiming to represent the Haisla. In official matters, we got the hereditary chiefs that BC and Canada know about now.  Canada knows about it BC Hydro knows about it and we got the Kitamaat Village Council an elected body, elected to represent us in political matters.  Right now the Haisla people don’t look organized:  legally, professionally, and politically.  This letter is…we don’t know what to do with this letter.

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
Let’s get one thing straight here.  This John Wilson and Harvey Grant letter, I don’t know nothing about this and I don’t think Crosby knows anything about it too.  But to go ahead with two of them on this document here, where they should have gone to the rest of the chiefs not just two of them go on ahead with this document.  

LORNA BOLTON:
What is Morris Amos on there for?

STEVE WILSON:
Well we have two here, that have said that they…that the chiefs are in agreement that Morris represents the Hemaas.

LORNA BOLTON:
No way…

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
Well if they want to represent the chiefs, they have to consult us too. Not just…this is what we propose and go ahead with it, they got to come to us too and if we agree then we’ll say okay we’ll sign it.

STEVE WILSON:
Ok, the thing that we need to do is fix this.  Godfrey

GODFREY GRANT:
I put in a recommendation to, publish this to the Haisla people, this letter because it’s done damage to the negotiating part of our deal and to let the people know with the names that are on here and who wrote this letter that they’re not the political body that are negotiating with Alcan and the BC Hydro.  Just for the information of the Haisla people cause’ it’s done a lot of damage on the political body part.

STEVE WILSON:
Verlie.

VERLIE NELSON:
Mr. Chairman, It sounds like we’ve come to that fork in the road where we need to sit down and let our community know what’s happening, and what’s going to happen, and what could happen, and what has happened, because we’re going to be sitting here again saying, “geez, I didn’t know about that”  If we let them know right from now, and we’re going to work together as a team, this is what we have and this is what we have to fix, and this is what we have to do.  I think if we sat down with our people and talk to them, with no animosity.  Starting with whatever we have today, this is what we have and this is what we have to fix, and this is what we have to do, because we don’t want end up being like people that have no reserve, and they don’t have any money.  There are people in Canada that are like that right now, and we don’t want to be that way.  We want to be in the money-making that’s going around that’s happening in the area.  And if we don’t take part it’s going to go ahead anyway, with or without our ok, or with or without our participation.  Then we’re going to be standing at the side lines again, just like it happened when Alcan came.  We don’t want to be that way again.  Thank you.

STEVE WILSON:
Ok now, all we need to do is fix this, and it is fixable.  And I don’t want this to go beyond this room, because we in this room have to fix it.  Right now I have a trust issue with Harvey and John on whether or not we can actually do that.  I think the appropriate thing is to consider, is it is not just about money.  We simply want a future for our children and our grandchildren.  That’s why we structure the employment, the training, the trades, that’s why we bought into KVI.  So that we can start putting our people through courses, so that they can get the training they need for the future.  We simply want procurements.  What we’ve agreed with Alcan in principle is, that we’ll structure the procurements that go out, that we have to be included in all of them.  That’s what is at stake here.  The power shaping deal is going to make us an awful lot of money too.  But if we don’t fix this internally and we don’t counter this in the BC Utilities Commission, Alcan is going to say “we can’t trust you guys” Now it isn’t $50M in cash, but if you look at the employment that is going to be coming, the training, and we’re setting standards as long as Alcan is here the value of it will be more that fifty million because it will give our people access to jobs, that they’re keeping us out of now.  We’ve got a lot of work to do, we’ve got to get our people their academic standing because that’s what’s going to determine whether or not they’re working.  I need you hereditary leaders to back me up and counter balance this letter.  I need your names signed, that you’re supportive of what we’re doing, and I guess that problem we face right now is, we’ve got a deal that we’ve worked on and you haven’t been involved in it, but the direction from you guys when we started was, don’t come to us until you have a deal, that isn’t working.  So that’s our fault and yours, so we need to fix it.  So maybe you need to appoint some of your younger Hemaas and Mus mugilth to work with me on these agreements, so that you guys have representation as we do that.  I’m prepared to do that, I think the other thing that I would like to propose is, what we do is, we’ll do an advisory committee and each clan appoint three people.  One of them has to be an elder, one of them has to be a youth, and I think we need to define another …no I think what we need is the head table for the advisory committee has to be the Hemaas and Mus mugilth but your representation on this advisory committee that works with council should have an elder, a youth and an (aalugh ?haisla?).  I don’t know that’s something you guys need to think about but I’m prepared to recommend to council that we resource that, cause we’ve got to change.  I offered this to you guys once; you never took me up on it.  You can’t sit there and criticize me because you guys failed to act on that.  And if you had been there John you would’ve heard all that, so think about that amongst yourselves, meet and let’s see if we can make this thing work.  Kevin

KEVIN STEWART:
Thanks Steve.  I agree with what Steve put on the board there John, I think me and Alex and Hank can help in a way.  To help develop that committee for you guys and we could work together with the head chief in each clan to find out who they want to be on that committee and put it on paper.

STEVE WILSON:
I would submit that that third person is going to be your successor. <inaudible> start that long term training, so that your successors understand what we’re doing and why.

KEVIN STEWART:
So is that what you want them to do Steve?

STEVE WILSON:
Yes I would like you guys to meet and do that I think you need to do that on your own and come to us and let us know what you want.  Now there are two things that are critical here in addition to Alcan; Alcan involves what you have in front of you, but the independent power projects are going to be very big for us. We’ve acquired thirty percent ownership in a company that’s being financed by a company out of Toronto with nothing on the table other than we have rights and title.  We’ve also been able to provide them access to Alcan’s grid, what makes this thing work is Alcan’s transmission line can hold a thousand mega watts.  When the modernization is complete the most that they will use is 700 mega watts, so that means they have three hundred mega watts that they can carry, so this deal, what it does is it gives us access to their transmission line, we’re still within the thousand mega watt range and then some, what it allows us to do is when we have spillage and the spillage is during the spring run off when the water flows are so high, BC Hydro says we’re going to pay you five cents all the way through, but they make you spill water.  So they give you nothing for the spillage, so what this power shaping deal does so if Alcan will buy the power from us and resell it to Hydro, even if we got five cents a watt that would still be around eight million dollars a year in revenue.  It’s a complicated deal, but it works very well for us.  We’ve had the best advisors working on this, it hasn’t just been Kitamaat Village Council, it just hasn’t been Steve Wilson, and we’ve had some very good experts working on this deal for us.  It’s going to be very important that you guys get behind us on this BC Utilities Commission letter.  The other piece to this is the camp services contract that is a two hundred and twenty million dollar contract.  What we’re going to do with that is we’re going to use all of the sub-contract under that for water hauling, garbage removal, laundry, cooking, cleaning, all of those things…what we’re doing is we’re going to design those as future businesses.  So that when modernization is over, we have a foundation that Alcan’s paid for, that is set up in individual businesses.  The agreement that we have with them is that, they will provide us with access to the experts to do a full analysis on where the future business opportunities are so that we can engage in them and have some ownership in them.  That’s what’s at stake, a camp services is going to be the foundation that we build that on. Two hundred and twenty million is nothing to sneeze at, it is a big deal.  The next thing that is going to impact us is our overlap and the Gitgaat are claiming all the way into Jesse Lake; and John it is your family from Gitgaat that is doing that, they’re undermining everything that we are doing. In fact they wanted to set up a commercial fishing operation in Jesse Lake and I had to say no, that is not your territory stay out.  And the one that is undermining you the most is Art Starr.  The person that you always quote in public meetings, Art said this Art said that, he’s the one that’s sitting there going “that’s my territory”, because the rest of the hereditary chiefs have said “you’re not right Art that’s Haisla territory”, everybody knows that.  And if you don’t believe me ask the people that were representing you at that table, you need to fix that because they’re claiming our territory.  The other one that is doing that is Kitkatla and they’re claiming all the way into Loretta Island.  So we have got a lot of work ahead of us.  And by sitting here fighting like this, it’s not going to solve anything, in fact it’s going to undermine everything that we are doing.  Those are the issues that we need some resolution around gentleman…ladies.  I need you guys, I don’t bare any ill will at any of this.  I’ve asked you to lead, now you guys need to understand that you can’t be involved politically, that’s not your role.  But you can advise us and when we’re doing things wrong, yes tell us that and then help us find a way to fix it.  But what happened in September and what happened during election that you guys were part of cannot happen anymore, we need better leadership than that.  Because the consequences, exactly this, we’re killing ourselves, we’re undermining everything that we stand for by doing this.  And when you have two people that you’re relying on, being Gerald and Morris, doing all of this dirty work for you, it makes you guys look bad too.  And all of us are painted with that brush and there is no need for that.  I don’t mean to be harsh, I don’t mean it disrespectfully, you’re blood, but I need to tell you that, you need to hear it because it did a lot of damage to all of us, personally and as a community and it has got to stop. Waa

JOHN WILSON Sr:
The first time I heard about you working with Alcan was when you appeared with them and you were going to sue the city, that’s the only time I knew about it…you talk about that getting the power from <inaudible> that’s the only time I heard about that and then that Banks Island Wind Power that’s all I know about that.

STEVE WILSON:
So do you suggest John that we meet every month to go over updates, because if that’s what you need then we’ll do that but you need to be prepared to come.  I have Harvey Grant Sr. and Harvey Grant Jr.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Yeah, I totally agree with you but when we say, we need a part of the office we don’t want to be into the…what you guys are doing, we want to be there in the advisory capacity, while a lot of us still have our health, we have a lot of these young people, up and coming up, but we need to get along more quickly, I know now we made a mistake and we can undo that.  I can do that quickly, very quickly with John here, so probably can do that today when I come back from a doctor’s appointment and I still say we have to move on as a Haisla Nation…as a united Haisla Nation, so let’s not look mournfully into the past and try to improve the future for the benefit of our grandchildren.  It’s good to have a meeting like this, it’s very good, like I say I’ve been in the political arena for twenty-one years I got hell, I was told I was no good for nothing, I shouldn’t be there but I hung in there and proved that I was right like you guys.  You are going to get some stiff opposition no matter how you look at it; you’re never right, never right. But I think one thing that held me in there because I was part of the leaders of our young people, I was concerned with my children my grandchildren for their well being, that’s why I stuck in with the Athletic Club.  You were right we were wrong, so we’re going to try un-do that wrong now, so we can move ahead with one voice.  That did come up and now I guess lastly is our concern, are we going to be funded for what we want to do is our cemetery…our cemetery is in deplorable condition.  It wasn’t built actually to be a cemetery we just started it and all hell broke loose, things started to happen, that’s why it was not even near finished.  So I think we need to find funding and my personal feeling is we can’t do it ourselves like we did when we built this one, that’s why I guess…was that coincidence or is it true if you build your own cemetery it brings you bad luck.  So this is why it has been on the shelf for thirty years now, so I think it has to be done.  I think you say you got so many dollars in surplus let’s use it and hire a contractor to build our Haisla people a decent cemetery.  I think that’s one of the main reasons why we are here as a little group. We’ll ask John to call a chiefs meeting, we’ll organize as soon as possible and let you know whatever our decision is going to be but I’ll tell you one thing from my personal feeling I want to join hands with you guys and move ahead as one voice, a united Haisla Nation, we made a mistake we’re going to undo it …that’s my own personal, I don’t know what John is thinkin’, that’s my own personal feeling and I want to undo it today.  Thank You.

STEVE WILSON:
Thank you Harvey, let me respond to that before I move to Harvey Jr. and then Crosby.  My recommendation would be for…to table that and at our next meeting a month from now that in the meantime you guys meet Kevin, Henry, Alex and Rod will work with you and you guys come up with how you want to approach this and I think you guys must include our Mus mugilth in there because they are just as responsible and I think that there is a solution there that works for all of us.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
That’s what I’m saying Steve we get our two young women there to phone everybody that’s on the paper and we will move ahead.

STEVE WILSON:
Can I have Harvey Grant Jr. and then Crosby.

HARVEY GRANT Jr:
I think this meeting once a month is a really good idea.  I like that idea and that gives me time to get into proper clothing and I need to apologize to Margaret for stinking her out of her, I got the notice and it was kind of late for me to change my work schedule in Alcan, I have very good boss’ in Alcan but I commit to on a weekly basis for my boss to do stuff for him also, so by setting a date, it’s more advanced notice so it will help me and I like this idea of the committee…advisory committee and to help un-do what was  done, <inaudible> the hereditary chiefs name for the fish clan, I have no problem signing a document to un-do what was done.  Thank you.

STEVE WILSON:
Ok, Crosby.

CROSBY SMITH:
Yeah I would like to…the comments that Harvey said that we settle this paper in front of me today <inaudible> going to the elders, like the chiefs, that’s going to be too long, it should be done today by the two people that signed this document

STEVE WILSON:
Maryiln

MARILYN FURLAN:
Hemaas, Mus mugilth, elected chief and council may I suggest a meeting October 25th as the next meeting and then a month again November 22nd and we’ll decide on November 22nd if there should be a meeting in December.  Because December is a really busy time for our community and to have it here at the Gya’wa’tlaab Healing Center at nine o’ clock In the morning
Sunday…

…Roles and responsibilities
HARVEY GRANT Jr:
No disrespect but the 25th is the big tide, I’ll be out clam digging

...Yeah it is
CROSBY SMITH:
That’s my anniversary too

MARILYN FURLAN:
Going to leave it to the ladies I know it

STEVE WILSON:
How about the 29th ?

MARILYN FURLAN:
The 29th is a…

STEVE WILSON:
Monday

MARILYN FURLAN:
Monday?

STEVE WILSON:
Monday say 10AM ?

MARILYN FURLAN:
Monday at 10AM…

VERLIE NELSON:
Is it going to be for a whole day or half a day do you expect?

STEVE WILSON:
Well let’s plan for a whole day.

2:01:37(?)
Do you want the advisory committee developed before that day?

STEVE WILSON:
You guys have to…the…you guys need to organize it and meet with them prior to that date/meeting.

KEITH NYCE:
Just on that topic of the advisory committee, I want to share with you, chief Clarence Louis from Osooyos First Nation was the only elected leader that I’ve ever heard that has guts to challenge what an elder is, he says they have a lot of old people that sit around and criticize, what they need are old people who…older people who are willing to mentor and be part of the solution and to be peace keepers rather than being part of the problem and I think that’s what we have here today.  And as is usual my style, I like to call the spade the spade, so when you’re looking at the composition of that advisory committee, bare in mind who’s an elder or who’s an old person with an axe to grind. There’s a huge difference, huge difference and I’ve seen that over the past six years.  I’ve sat in front of the public with old people with an axe to grind the elders sit back and allow it to happen

RUSSELL ROSS Sr:
How old is old?

KEITH NYCE:
Russell you’re still a young guy ……

MARGARET GRANT:
Harvey Sr. made a comment and he said that you will always have opposition and I agree. There will always be someone who doesn’t agree with you, you can have opposition but it doesn’t have to be hateful, it doesn’t have to be spiteful.  Individual opinion, yes, hatefulness and spitefulness, no, it doesn’t have to be that way.  I do see a united Haisla Nation, it is possible. We can work together to do that but to do this and why we are here today we need to work together we need to be open with each other we need to be honest with each other.  In the community it has been said earlier this morning that when there’s hatefulness and spitefulness those individuals need to be corrected by the Hemaas and the Mus mugilth, one on one, pull them aside it doesn’t have to be a big community gathering.  We all need to speak up; every single one of us has a light inside of us that is capable of lighting a dark room.  If every single one of us started working together, just imagine how bright that light would be in that dark room, we’d be able to light it all up.  We can work together and today is a new beginning, a new start and a new chapter.  We’re on a new page, let’s start fresh.  We’ll fix what needs fixing and we will move on.  Wuu.

STEVE WILSON:
Verlie

VERLIE NELSON:
There was mention of what an elder is, there’s different ways of defining what an elder is, I really tried hard to find out what an elder is from different places.  Elder is an old person, but an old person with wisdom, and that wisdom comes from life itself and what they’ve been taught.

STEVE WILSON:
Thank you, now I think we’ve come to the end of this portion of the agenda.  There’s only two things that need to be done.  And Wiseks said it, that letter needs to be sent out by today, and I’ll ask Margaret to work with you, right now to get that letter done and out.  The second thing is, one of the things that I heard from Tom was some of you haven’t been paid for some of those meetings that have happened in the past.  I need to know what we owe you so we can fix it.  Because the standing order to our staff is; when you come to a meeting it’s automatic you get your honorarium, just like the council member of KVC gets.  So the honorarium that we set for our full council meeting is $200 per day, if it’s for ½ a day it’s $100.  Sue make note of that, and make sure you have everybody’s name here.

SUE CHRISTIANSEN:
I have it down already.

STEVE WILSON:
Ok, and for those that work in Alcan, there’s a separate rate because you’re missing more money than the $200, so Sue will make sure you guys are looked after.  But you need to let her know how much we owe you from past meetings for KVC, and the Haisla Gow is not one of them.  That is where you are performing a function as a community leader, and that’s the reason why you put up the feast and paid your witnesses of it, you are seen as a community leader.  And in that function I don’t think it would be appropriate to say here is your $200.  Now I thank you for coming and if I’ve hurt your feelings I apologize, but it needed to be said.  I tried to show the respect that your name and title demands, but that has to be a two way street from now on.  Now that we’ve started a new page, my door is always open, and if I’m not there my cell phone number is 632-1070.  Thank you

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Yeah umm, Sue can you give us minutes of this meeting, as soon as possible, we’re going to need it if we have a chiefs meeting.

STEVE WILSON:
Can you do these minutes verbatim.

SUE CHRISTIANSEN:
Verbatim,? Ok.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
To be handed to John or sent to his house.

SUE CHRISTIANSEN:
To John alone?

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
To everybody, I guess….like I say this is a new page we have to work together from here on in.  We will un-do what we did and turn over a new page.  Like I said I’ve been called all kinds of names all through my life as a leader, I never did do the right thing, but what we did showed up at the end.  The same thing is going to happen to you guys.  So I want to thank you for calling us and hopefully we will settle this.  This meeting on the 29th, is that going to be the advice thing there or what is it going to be about?

STEVE WILSON:
You guys need to settle your structure and you need to figure out how you’re going to be performing your advisory for Council from this point on.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
ok, that’s why we need the minutes so we can go on.

STEVE WILSON:
Ellis

ELLIS ROSS:
In closing, I’d just like to say that I’ve never had this happen in my tenure as a councilor.  I’ve never had this meeting and I’ve never had this agreement with the chiefs, I think when we come to an agreement it will be a pivotal point in our history.  You guys have to be included, more than we’ve included you up to now.  And I think if we do come to an agreement we should celebrate it publicly.

HARVEY GRANT Sr:
Right on!

ELLIS ROSS:
Thank you

STEVE WILSON:
Wuu 2:11:00

KEVIN STEWART:
Pat wants to make a presentation to everybody before lunch, you’re all told to stay for lunch, but Pat has a gift here for everybody before you go eat.

PAT STARR:
On behalf of the society, I’d like to make a presentation to all the elected and hereditary leaders…it’s just that the centre acknowledges everything that everybody does on behalf of our nation. 2:12:59